Ron Luce – Live at the Coalition
13 Comments Published by coalitionnyc April 10th, 2007 in battlecry, ron luceLive blogging Ron Luce/Battle Cry conversation (April 10, 2007)
[Note: The Coalition's hosting of Ron Luce and this report of the conversation does not imply an endorsement of the upcoming Battle Cry NY event, nor does it imply any official relationship between the Coalition and Battle Cry. It merely serves as a catalyst of information and discussion. Please feel free to comment on the questions, answers, and strategy in the comments section.]
+ National Trends
Need to understand the signs of the times (Luke 12:54-58).
- 4-5% of teens are “Bible Believing Christians” (What does that mean?)
Post-Christian America — look to post-Christian Europe for example of where we are headed
Everyone in youth ministry works hard, but the numbers remain in decline
Most people come to faith before age 20. Appx 4 million/year turn 20.
We have 4-5 yrs to change the tide.
- Media consumption / oversaturation
- Sexualization of the culture
+ “Culture/virtue terrorists”
Marketeers and corporate America hijacking our kids
Target them as pre-teens, especially urban poor
Exploit them for a buck
+ Point and Click Pornography
Ages 12-17 are the largest consumers of online porn
+ Battle Cry
“Church: it’s time to wake up”
Target leaders, lay people, and senior pastors to focus on kids and invest time and resource to change the tide
Overseas, culture is being shaped by American media
If only 4-5 yrs, how can we turn this around?
Huge events –> Catalyst for churches to change paradigm to invest in kids –> Tools for youth pastors to engage pastors/deacons etc. Small group curriculum.
+ Q&A
Q: If you were afraid to come, why are you here?
A: Said partly in jest, partly not. Need to come (a) if wanted and helpful and (b) if there are local people who willing to be part of the team. “Our success depends entirely on local youth ministry success.”
Q: Have you had success in engaging business community?
A: Help fundraise by each kid paying fee. Fundraise some. “I have a love/hate relationship with NYC.” Hate media influence of Madison Ave, MTV, etc. But love the people. A $2.3 billion perfume company approached BC to see if they want to “private label” a perfume that could be marketed to values-teens.
Q: What’s the best way to deal with oversexualization?
A: 1. Unmasking for the kids what marketers are doing to them, i.e. MTV’s cradle-to-grave strategy of Mooks & Midriffs. 2. We have awakened love prematurely in 4-5-6 year old. True love waits — 90% of kids broke their TLW vows. Teach kids not to give their heart away.
Q: What’s been the response to BC in other cities?
A: So far: San Francisco, Detroit, and Baltimore. Three stadium events every year.
Q: What’s the follow-up plan?
A: Use event as a catalyst. Train teens how to be influencers with their friends. “Totally dependent on the youth pastor. … We know what to do, and youth pastors can know what to do” if they utilize the resources, podcasts, training tools, etc.
Q: How many NYC senior pastors that you’ve met are willing to refocus and restructure ministries?
A: Overwhelming response. Yes, we want you to come, but it’s not just about an event. It’s about a paradigm shift. “Our churches need to be hospitals for a broken generation.”
Q: How do we create hospitals in our churches — including those reaching out to the gay community — when Battlecry is so easily perceived as anti-gay?
A: We’re not anti-gay. We love gay people. Not the lifestyle, but we love the people. The message of gay rights groups (in SF): “As you long as you stay to yourselves, we don’t care. But if you oppose our views, we don’t want to hear you.” When asked, “If there’s one thing you could say to the gay community, what would it be?” Ron replied: “Someone who called themself a Christian probably treated them harshly, so I would ask them to forgive me on behalf of the one who offended you because that’s not how Jesus would treat you.” The anti-gay critique is “much ado about nothing.”
Q: How do we engage schools?
A: Whatever strategy must be connected to a church strategy.
Q: The success of the event is contingent on the involvement of churches. What’s the ramp-up plan — beyond PR?
A: May launch events Friday for senior pastors and Saturday for youth pastors. Summits. Gather 100s of leaders cast vision strategy, tools, and proceed from there. Possibly do that again in the fall, along with decentralized youth rallies. Summits introduce tools. Jack Redmond and others may conduct youth leader trainings.
Q: How much of the defensiveness is due to the “battlecry” rhetoric and endorsements of Sean Hannity, etc?
A: Some backlash because too much “mamby pamby kumbaya … softsell” Christianity. Need to give kids a backbone. Not about meanness, but kindness. Put on the full armor of God. Why can’t policy makers regulate media and porn etc? We regulate environmental pollution, why not cultural pollution? If kids can’t go into XXX shops, why can they get XXX porn online for free? How did we get to 4%? Systemic problems. We (the church and culture) are perfectly designed to get 4%.
Q: How is Battlcry not just a “band aid”? What about the rappers, merchandisers, etc. that pollute the cutlure at its core?
A: The way we change culture is by engaging it. It’s the church’s fault that culture has decayed because we’ve disengaged. BC empowers kids to be change agents. Example of Victoria’s Secret in a mall. 30 kids, one by one go into a store and ask them to take the posters down. The manager refuses each one. Then all came in together and demanded it together. Finally the manager relented and removed the posters. Another example: “pornaments.” One youth group caused Arizona store chain to remove pornaments from their stores. Battlecry.com.
C: Senior pastor says, “Thank you.” For too long NYC has been “abandoned.”
Q: How is BC going to reach urban kids so it doesn’t come off as a white suburban event?
A: We need you to help us shape the program. Artists, speakers etc.
Q: What are the expectations on Coalition and local youth workers?
A: BC will take the onus off finances, but can’t be in grass roots. A successful effort must be “us” collective. Total and complete embracing.
Q: How are the events paid?
A: Budget for each event roughly $1.5 million. BC will “take responsibility” for this, but challenges each church to “invest.” If youth is priority, invest in the event. Registration fee is $25-35. Fundraising tools, etc for local churches, as well as scholarships. BC would do the church a “disservice” if outsiders pay for everything. Train churches to keep sacrificing to reach kids.
Q: NYC has been burned by outsiders since 9/11. Christian events with great intentions appear as commercialized as all the rest. What about facilitating individual relationships and local efforts? Is it really the best effort to try to create Jerusalem when we live in Babylon? Is $1.5 million in an event the best investment?
A: It’s not a good investment if we fail to empower youth ministries to double every year. What’s our role in the culture war? Changing the culture doesn’t help people get into heaven. But it can help preserve a teen’s heart so they’re not hard hearted when they hear the gospel. Together we’re going to rescue the kids. Together.
Q: Why come to senior pastors first and then youth pastors? Why have the senior pastor and youth pastor meetings seperately? That appears to bring more division. Come to senior pastors first, now the youth pastor is obligated. Why not challenge the pastors to invest in what youth pastors are already doing?
A: We’re having two meetings because that’s what local leaders suggested. Senior pastors won’t come on Saturday; bivocational youth pastors can’t come on Friday. So have two meetings. We’re trying to do what we can to urge pastors to change their paradigm.
Q: I didn’t have a church youth group, but big events inspired me to faith and boldness in high school. Do you advertise on secular stations, and what kind of cross-over artists like Switchfoot could be invited?
A: We’re open. Ty Tribbet, David Crowder, POD — all possibilities.
C: We need BC to catalyze united prayer in the city.
Ron Luce Q: Is this an idea worth exploring? 60/40 hands raised.
Q: What works in teaching discipleship and making culture-shapers?
A: Teach youth to be disciple makers. Teenmania offers lots of curriculum to help that. Also, the power of the testimony. Share ideas and encourage imitation. No one program or formula.
Q: We assume BC is putting in twice the effort and resources to come to NYC. Why then coming to Continental Arena, which feels very suburban?
A: More trips to NYC than any other city ever for relationship building: 12 trips in 6 months. After research, 50/50 pros & cons for NJ arenas. Plus, in good weather, can’t use NYC baseball stadiums.
C: The success of the event won’t depend on the night. The production value will be excellent. The biggest issue is how churches join together to build kids. Unless we train kids to do the ministry, we’re not going to win this generation.
C: Ramp-up is going to be critical. How are we going to reach the unchurched? What’s the strategy to get them there?
C: If the event is going to happen, the pragmatics matter, e.g. transportation to the event. Public transportation to MSG better than NJ.
Q: NYC leaders gun-shy because outside groups tend to talk from both sides of their mouth. “Ownership, buy-in” rhetoric has burned them before. Exploited for repeatedly for fund-raising purposes. Worst examples were post 9-11. How is this different?
A: We don’t need to do another dance. Too busy already. Since there are a million reasons to disagree, can we find places of agreement?
Q: If the measure of the success isn’t the event itself, but the 2-yr legacy of doubling youth ministry, how does BC invest in that process?
A: Testimonies of the success of the books and curriculums.
Q: How will the program be determined?
A: Executive committee will help shape that.
UPDATE (4/12/07)
Youth Rock and New Birth Ministries are hosting a Battle Cry Rally April 27.
Our strategy is still to encourage churches to reach out to schools.
The rhetorical emphasis of Battle Cry is a good one for awakening churches, but
then the “troops” have to start moving out toward the territory where the
kids are congregating.
Thank you for the live blog. This rhetoric is troubling. Battle Cry and giving our young people backbone. All these military language is suppose to relate to the spiritual realm and our “rules of engagement” is something that should be balanced towards a redemptive gospel. That says, we care about their stories and their struggles and not to destroy these things but to see it as opportunities to redeem. If our Babylon is so cohersive that the gospel can’t penetrate the darkness then we need to rethink our perspective of the gospel. The reality of this kind of this rhetoric requires “collatoral damage” of those who are in bondage to this sin. So instead of bridging and giving them the cross we give them the sword. That is not what I believe Jesus came to engage…but to see the carnality as a hint of our fallenness…
The battle cry that I think we need to express is one like Christ…on the cross…
“father father, forgive them…”
I am afraid that this might become another race towards fanaticism and to be the first place in being religious…that I am afraid that it affirms a world’s view of power and not the gospel of reversing power by loving and affirming.
What I think young people need more than anything are real expression of faith…that is not hinged on counterpoints of worldliness but rather pointing towards a gospel that says “love God…love people” Isaiah 58 rings a bell that despite all our religious activity, we have failed our greatest redemptive occupation of addressing the poor and the broken….that includes those in the body.
One thing that struck me about Alcoholics Anonymous…they didn’t rally against alcohol industry but it was a community of people who acknowledged their capacity for depravity…and also the wonder of community that says, there is hope and more hope as we limp through our faith…I think this is the backbone that our young people need…a backbone to express their cry for grace…and the ability to work together towards building…and falling together…but not without hope…
I think bringing Battle cry to NYC would be a positive. Most Christian Concerts and or gatherings never come to NYC. I think with the message that Teen Mania is sending, NYC would be the place to really reach those who need to hear the TRUTH of God. Not that the Local churches aren’t doing anything but an event of this magnitude in NYC can cause those same churches to be even more effective. I for one am a local youth pastor in queens at a medium size church and we participated in the ATF event in Philly last year and I must say my group of young people came back SO on fire for God and we have seen God move in the young people of Richmond Hill.
I feel that as a pastor of a church who does not have the resources to have major events these types of events will help us reach those that maybe we couldn’t have reached. I am on board and elohim church will be there to help and reach young people for Christ. At the end of the day that’s what it’s all about.
Pastor Danny
Youth Pastor
http://www.elohimchurch.org
There are effective youth ministries in NYC that may be prepared to engage the city with RL and BC!
Event should likely be mixed in terms of speakers / music so as to reach out to all the city’s youth. Thx
I know that John Liotti from east palo alto will be a good person to talk to in regards to questions with working with battle cry. He has worked with them over the last two years. He is friends with a key person from the organization, but he will give you some definite frustrations that he has experienced.
I was also amazed at ron’s comments in regards to the gay question. He led a march on city hall in sf and picketed against gay marriage. I am not sure what the goal was there, but from a distance he seems to say one thing with his mouth in regards to homosexuality and acts a different way.
The message of Jesus is being preached.
As long as that message is being sent out to this generation I think we should all gather together and help make a difference. Just like any other event like the Billy Graham Crusade it’s the responsibility of the local church for follow up and discipleship. The bottom line is we need to realize that this event will HELP us reach our youth…even the ones in our own congregation. I say lets focus on the message of Jesus and realize that all of us just want to see this generation transformed.
Philippians 1:15-18
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,
I agree that the music and choice of speakers should definitely be mixed and be able to reach our Urban population which consists of hip hop, rock, and many other genres. This will be a key point in attracting non churched kids to these types of events.
Daniel, the contention is that what gospel is being preached…as you well know, nobody doesn’t want to be called as not preaching the gospel. The implication of what gospel is being preached. Mormon and Jehovah Witnesses strongly believe that they are preaching the gospel. My concern is that there is a conservative agenda that has hijacked the gospel into something that is focused on power versus service.
I completely understand your point. In my experience, hearing and watching what has gone on during these events, I agree with their message. In my opinion it is message of Jesus and being transformed for him. What impressed me about them is that they are not their representing or promoting a church or an affiliation but sending a message; Truth of God. I understand that they may have an agenda but at the end of the day their agenda takes a backseat to God. Every movement will have things we disagree with but these types of events not just from BC will help us in what we can all agree with, reaching young people.
Your concern is a valid point. I think if we take the time to understand the big picture, which is reaching young people and uniting ALL churches, I believe this will be a positive rather than a negative. In retrospect this is only a weekend and a resource to use as a catalyst to engage our own young people and those that will be reached through this event much after BC has come and gone. We should take the responsibility to direct our young people to the full gospel.
Hello friends. Thank you Coalition this blog. As usual, you’ve done a great job.
I wasn’t at this meeting since the usual gathering day was changed. However, I do have several questions I’d like to submit for further reflection on this topic.
1. It seems to me that this event is already planned and going to happen with or without the Coalition’s “blessing.” Is this correct?
2. Is spending $1.5 million for a one time event really the wisest way to spend money – to hear music, watch skits, and listen to a speaker(s) – considering the hurting teens that with whom we minister?
3. Is a large group gathering really the most effective way to transform our hurting teens at the community level?
4. How does being “on fire” or attending a large event necessarily translate into a local church becoming more effective and impactful in a local community?
5. How is this large group gathering any different than the usual evangelistic outreach our churches/youth ministries already do or visiting organizations who have come though have done in the past?
6. Is there some new or special message that Teen Mania is going to share that we haven’t discussed or addressed in the passed at the Coalition? Perhaps I’m missing something, but isn’t the battlecry theme of engaging youth culture and challening our teens old news? Isn’t this what the members of the Coalition have been doing for years already?
7. I’m wondering if it might be more effective, prophetic and impactful to transform urban youth culture in NYC if Teen Mania would grant the $1.5 million dollars earmarked for the event to the Coalition for the monies to be distributed to its member organizations as decided by a RFP process which would be reviewed by a Coalition and Teen Mania committee?
What say ye?
God Bless Everyone,
As articulated above thank you for this opportunity, I would like to give my opinion on some of these questions.
Attending these types of events are used as a catalyst (tool) to help encourage our young people spread the Gospel to there friends and Family.
Being “on Fire” is the excitement and the fervor they have after taking out a weekend and seeing 20,000 other young people worship God.
In my experience they came back encouraged and smaller churches who are not involved in the coalition are not always holding or going to events of this magnitude. Again, this event is not here to solve urban issues but to empower young people to go back to their communities and make a difference.
Also, concerning the last question posed. What if you are not a member of the coalition? Or what about churches that do not even know this coalition exist? Why should (if this ever happens) these funds be distributed just to those churches involved or members of the coalition, when there are MANY churches outside of the coalition impacting communities?
Again, with much love and respect, this is only a weekend event. It will always be our job to impact change in our urban communities after that weekend. The Job is ours, as we have been doing for years all across the city.
Also, yes I think they are doing this event regardless.
With Love,
Daniel
Thanks so much to all of the members present at the meeting on April 10th. It was an honor and a privilege to be invited by the coalition to share our vision with you and answer many questions that you had. I would like to respond to several questions that have been posted on this blog by some who were not present at the meeting. Please read below for my responses.
It seems like the event is already planned and is going to happen with or without the coalition’s blessings is that correct?
Last December we were invited and hosted by Joseph Mattera to meet with about 150 pastors in the NY/NJ area. Based on them giving us their invitation and blessing we booked the venue. We obviously want to work very closely with the coalition and come in under their blessing.
Is $1.5 million for a one time event really the wisest way to spend money to hear music, watch skits, listen to speakers considering the hurting teens with whom we minister?
Is the large group gathered really the most direct way to transform our hurting teens at a community level?
The very reason we do these events is because there are so many hurting teens. You can accomplish a lot in the atmosphere and environment of faith that you cannot accomplish in the smaller venue. There is a place for each. The local church is the most important, that is why all of our resources are geared towards helping the church grow and disciple. Yet at the same time, there are things that can be accomplished in a larger venue that is not just hearing music, watching skits and listening to a speaker. We have all witnessed life changing, destiny altering impact at events. It is not about the big event, it is about all the other implications that happen as a result of it. We would be happy to send you a sampling of the thousands of testimonies we receive from teens whose lives are changed as a result of attending one of these events.
How does being on fire or being at a large event necessarily translate to a local church becoming more effective and impactful in a local community?
The whole point is to give the church tools. It’s to make available tools to the local church where they can begin to double their youth group and disciple their kids. The event is a tool and the Battlecry resources are tools. The desire is to engage the broader audience of the church- that is, the leaders and the deacons and the lay people in the cause of youth ministry- so they will begin to fund youth ministry and get involved. If they see something that is having a national impact (i.e. ABC, Nightline, CNN, front page of the New York Times), pastors and leaders may take notice and think, “Wow, if there is a national conversation about this in the media, maybe I need to think about how to get involved as well.” If we get church leaders deeply committed then it helps the youth pastor and youth ministry.
How is the large group gathering any different than a usual evangelistic outreach our cities, churches, and ministries already do or visiting organizations have done in the past?
Is there some new special message that Teen Mania is going to share that we have not discussed or addressed in the past at the coalition Perhaps I am missing something, but isn’t the BattleCry theme engaging youth culture and challenging teens old news? Isn’t this what members of the coalition have been doing for years already?
Hopefully the event will reinforce and bolster the usual evangelistic outreach that your cities, churches and ministries already do. There is training on how to double and disciple your youth ministry. It is catalytic, it’s exciting, and it’s vision building. We have many testimonies from youth pastors that we can send you that are completely and passionately committed, excited and refueled about their own local youth ministry as a result of being involved. It is not just evangelism, it is about every other kid that is there who needs to learn how to overcome issues that they are dealing with, become strong in their faith, share their faith, and see through the lies that the culture is shoving down their throat.
Wouldn’t it be more effective and prophetically faster to transform the urban youth culture in New York City if Teen Mania would grant the 1.5 million mark to the coalition for the moneys to be distributed to member organizations as decided by a process which would be reviewed by Teen Mania and coalition committee?
$1.5 million is the potential cost of the event. We hope to recoup this or close to it in registrations and nationwide donors. We plan to ask our donors from all over the country to help us pay for this event in the NY/NJ area.
Thank you so much for your heart for this generation and your willingness to partner with us in reaching them. It is an honor and a privilege to serve you.
Consumed by the Call,
Ron
Fam,
I love the dialog, and I love the honesty. Jeremy, thank you for opening the conversation up for a broad and exhaustive response.
I was the “Youth Chair” for the Palau Festival in the Twin Cities in 2005, and I have been working with other large National Organizations (including Dare 2 Share, ATF/Battle Cry, and others) for years. I think that Ron makes a key distinction in his response:
“Yet at the same time, there are things that can be accomplished in a larger venue that is not just hearing music, watching skits and listening to a speaker. We have all witnessed life changing, destiny altering impact at events. It is not about the big event, it is about all the other implications that happen as a result of it.”
While transparency demands of me that I tell y’all that I have had my headaches and heartaches as I have worked with the “big dogs” and their “big events,” I also appreciate the “big picture” that is presented at such venues. The event and the atmosphere it creates is overtly huge, and therefore somewhat intriguing. Would an NBA Game be the same if the crowd were a couple of hundred? Kind of a silly analogy, but the point is that there is a time and place for each type of venue – small, medium, and super-sized. Urbana, DC/LA, and other conferences are examples of when big=powerful.
That being said, here is my candid advice: make sure that there is a high level of transparency, and a collaborative approach – especially in the area of finances. If NYC is funding a MAJORITY of the event’s expenses on the front end, then NYC should have a couple of key local Leaders (JD) on the Leadership Team of the event AND on the Finance Team of the event. This creates an atmosphere of accountability, and allows there to be true local ownership. I hope this is helpful, and lets make sure we are all praying for each other in the middle of this. Peace.